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abdumniator6000
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« Reply #90 on: January 30, 2012, 02:33:01 PM » |
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OK, so that's powerlifting form - delts are very important
Several studies have shown that the grip width matters more than the angle. There was even one study that found as much upper pec activity for decline and incline. The clavicular head of the pectoralis major is responsible, among other things, for shoulder flexion.
I remember it was either the_wolf or you saying that it's more about the trajectory of the humerus; that is with tucked elbows since the arm is going more on a trajectory upwards the upper pecs are more involved, which would actually be the exact opposite of what you said about the angle, Umbra. I can say from my experience that tucked elbows has never felt like it was working the lower pecks more By the way- from what I'm reading about CGBP right now- are you saying, KN, that regular bench press might be just as good for the triceps if not better  ? Yes...Decline close grip bench press overloads the triceps well...Also, keep in mind that each muscle group (sternal, clavicular pecs, front delts, triceps) will not be challenged to the same extent at every portion of the lift. Triceps are more active towards the lockout. Could be the reason why the version using the most weight would also be the one that gives them the most work. The chest and front delts (as well as the lats, to some extent) are important in getting the bar off the bottom, then towards the mid-range, front delts are even more important. Anyway, I'm saying dips stimulate the triceps even better  Ok, so the best triceps dominant assistance exercise would then be bench lockouts or partial dips xD? |
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King Neptune
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« Reply #91 on: January 30, 2012, 02:49:23 PM » |
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OK, so that's powerlifting form - delts are very important
Several studies have shown that the grip width matters more than the angle. There was even one study that found as much upper pec activity for decline and incline. The clavicular head of the pectoralis major is responsible, among other things, for shoulder flexion.
I remember it was either the_wolf or you saying that it's more about the trajectory of the humerus; that is with tucked elbows since the arm is going more on a trajectory upwards the upper pecs are more involved, which would actually be the exact opposite of what you said about the angle, Umbra. I can say from my experience that tucked elbows has never felt like it was working the lower pecks more By the way- from what I'm reading about CGBP right now- are you saying, KN, that regular bench press might be just as good for the triceps if not better ? Yes...Decline close grip bench press overloads the triceps well...Also, keep in mind that each muscle group (sternal, clavicular pecs, front delts, triceps) will not be challenged to the same extent at every portion of the lift. Triceps are more active towards the lockout. Could be the reason why the version using the most weight would also be the one that gives them the most work. The chest and front delts (as well as the lats, to some extent) are important in getting the bar off the bottom, then towards the mid-range, front delts are even more important. Anyway, I'm saying dips stimulate the triceps even better Ok, so the best triceps dominant assistance exercise would then be bench lockouts or partial dips xD? Pin presses, board presses...these are assistance lifts for the regular bench press. If the goal is to build the triceps, a challenging lift with a full range of motion might be a better bet, like, dips  , with a fairly large ROM (elbows a bit higher than shoulders, if your body can take it). Having said that, pin lockouts (bench press pin lockouts and overhead pin lockouts) let you use a lot of weight without stressing the joints too much. So there's value in that, too. And of course, there are many fine triceps isolations. Such as dumbbell triceps extensions on a decline bench. |
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Umbra
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« Reply #92 on: January 30, 2012, 03:00:38 PM » |
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Have you changed your mind a bit?
No, I still think dips are better for overall chest improvement than bench press. It's why I said I prefer wide grip dips and CGBP combination over bench press and dips combination. But then again, my CGBP number is not that lower than my bench presses. Well, by close grip you mean torso width, right? Most people get 90% of their normal grip bench that way...So of course chest and delts are still very active. Some studies indicate that, while the proportion of the work done by the triceps is higher with close grip than wider, the activation of all muscle groups, including triceps, is a bit lower. These are just studies, I know...But I tend to think that a compound should put as many muscles as possible in the optimal position to produce as much force as possible...give them their best line of pull. That's why I don't like so-called triceps dips. Trying to remain upright just puts more strain on the shoulder capsule, by the way. A moderate grip, that will let you use the most weight or do the most reps, is what I think will activate both chest and triceps to the max. CGBP is still great, though, to groove elbows tucked form, and stimulate the upper pecs. Yes I mean torso width, narrower than that and I feel unnecessary strain in my elbows and shoulders. I like Gironda's chest dips, however I'm not always strict as I also think other muscles and joints should be in the optimal position. Well if someone's CGBP is significantly lower their normal grip bench press, it makes perfectly sense that everything works less in CGBP but the proportion of the work done by the triceps is higher. However a while ago there was a study in which the subject had used the same weight for both CGBP and bench press, and still everything worked less in CGBP. The study was posted on this forum and it made no sense, you're basically closer to your 1RM in CGBP, range of motion is greater, you're moving the same weight as bench press and still everything works less? Makes no sense. P.S. With the CGBP, my guess would be that upper pec and front delt activation would be higher. Did the study measure upper pec activation as well? I know this was to dodo but I gotta ask why do you think the upper pecs are worked more in a close grip bench press? AFAIK which area of the chest is recruited most depends on the angle between the humerus and the torso, with less angle (elbows tucked in) recruiting more of the lower portion of the pecs, whereas the greater the angle and the more the elbows are flared out, there's more recruitment of the upper chest @Umbra: what's your bench press form like? Elbows tucked, or flaring to the sides quite a bit?
I just sorta let them fall into a comfortable position, which I noticed today seems to be at about a 45 degree angle from my torso OK, so that's powerlifting form - delts are very important  Several studies have shown that the grip width matters more than the angle. There was even one study that found as much upper pec activity for decline and incline. The clavicular head of the pectoralis major is responsible, among other things, for shoulder flexion. Am I wrong in thinking powerlifting is closer to 30 degrees (or I guess the 15 degrees isn't significant in this case?) or do you have a different idea on what my elbows are like? In any case that link to jimmy W's website was bloooooooooody good! thanks whoever linked that! It's actually inspired me to overhead press lol! Although he suggests it done in front of the face? Also he suggests rows over chin ups / pull ups for someone benching raw... which is a shame because I really wanted to focus on my chin ups as well! So instead of chin ups twice a week and rows once a week it would be the other way round  I'll have to give this some thought... OK, so that's powerlifting form - delts are very important
Several studies have shown that the grip width matters more than the angle. There was even one study that found as much upper pec activity for decline and incline. The clavicular head of the pectoralis major is responsible, among other things, for shoulder flexion.
I remember it was either the_wolf or you saying that it's more about the trajectory of the humerus; that is with tucked elbows since the arm is going more on a trajectory upwards the upper pecs are more involved, which would actually be the exact opposite of what you said about the angle, Umbra. I can say from my experience that tucked elbows has never felt like it was working the lower pecks more By the way- from what I'm reading about CGBP right now- are you saying, KN, that regular bench press might be just as good for the triceps if not better ? That's interesting what you say came from the wolf... what I wrote I took from an anatomy book and I actually find it explains other things. Like it explains why an incline bp emphasises the upper chest; it allows the angle between the elbows to be more flared out (which matches the book's explanation of higher elbows = more recruitment from the upper portion of the pecs) without straining the shoulders in the way that really flared elbows would aggravate your shoulders during a flat bench press. It also explains why dips and decline presses are believed to work the lower chest more. I know dodo made a post about feeling it in his UPPER chest but my only noticeable chest gains came from weighted dips (done in a way that emphasised the chest so the elbows weren't even as tucked as they would be for an upright dip with narrow bars), and they're definitely fuller at the bottom of the muscle (very noticeably so) so I have to disagree with him and say that dips DO emphasise the lower portion of the chest more and this also fits in with what the book said, which is tucked in elbows (smaller angle between the torso and humeri) recruits more from the lower portion of the chest. When you do dips, your arms are beneath you, meaning the angle between torso and humeri WILL be quite low and this holds true even if you're really leaning over and are using wide bars for your dips. Overhead presses and high incline bench presses are the opposite, with your arms raised above you and your vertical torso (or almost vertical with high incline bench presses), giving you a large angle between torso and humeri. |
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You could do a lot worse than being a Rippetoe fanboy...
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Umbra
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« Reply #93 on: January 30, 2012, 03:08:54 PM » |
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OK, so that's powerlifting form - delts are very important
Several studies have shown that the grip width matters more than the angle. There was even one study that found as much upper pec activity for decline and incline. The clavicular head of the pectoralis major is responsible, among other things, for shoulder flexion.
I remember it was either the_wolf or you saying that it's more about the trajectory of the humerus; that is with tucked elbows since the arm is going more on a trajectory upwards the upper pecs are more involved, which would actually be the exact opposite of what you said about the angle, Umbra. I can say from my experience that tucked elbows has never felt like it was working the lower pecks more By the way- from what I'm reading about CGBP right now- are you saying, KN, that regular bench press might be just as good for the triceps if not better ? Yes...Decline close grip bench press overloads the triceps well...Also, keep in mind that each muscle group (sternal, clavicular pecs, front delts, triceps) will not be challenged to the same extent at every portion of the lift. Triceps are more active towards the lockout. Could be the reason why the version using the most weight would also be the one that gives them the most work. The chest and front delts (as well as the lats, to some extent) are important in getting the bar off the bottom, then towards the mid-range, front delts are even more important. Anyway, I'm saying dips stimulate the triceps even better Ok, so the best triceps dominant assistance exercise would then be bench lockouts or partial dips xD? partial dips lol? |
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You could do a lot worse than being a Rippetoe fanboy...
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andrew9450
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« Reply #94 on: January 30, 2012, 03:12:56 PM » |
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This is getting ridiculous O_o
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King Neptune
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« Reply #95 on: January 30, 2012, 03:13:52 PM » |
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Umbra, YW (I linked) - he also says he does chins no matter what, he just said horizontal rows are what helps the bench press the most. http://exrx.net/Muscles/PectoralisClavicular.htmlAs you can see, the clavicular head does a lot more than shoulder flexion, so there are other ways to recruit it. But studies have demonstrated that a narrow grip width is even more important than the angle. You could do incline with a narrow grip for the upper pecs. But benching with the guillotine form, very high on your chest, will, apart from destroying your shoulder joints, involve the upper pecs a lot, too. I agree with dodo that dips work the upper pecs a lot. As you can see, the clavicular head helps perform shoulder flexion and adduction, and these actions are a part of the dipping movement. |
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abdumniator6000
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« Reply #96 on: January 30, 2012, 03:22:05 PM » |
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The partial dips thing was a half joke, hence the xD- because I mean- well the top of the motion should be triceps dominant so...
Eh, I wouldn't do partial dips anyway. Just throwin' that out there
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King Neptune
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« Reply #97 on: January 30, 2012, 03:24:59 PM » |
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Partial dips is something I see being performed quite often.
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Umbra
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« Reply #98 on: January 30, 2012, 03:33:13 PM » |
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Umbra, YW (I linked) - he also says he does chins no matter what, he just said horizontal rows are what helps the bench press the most. http://exrx.net/Muscles/PectoralisClavicular.htmlAs you can see, the clavicular head does a lot more than shoulder flexion, so there are other ways to recruit it. But studies have demonstrated that a narrow grip width is even more important than the angle. You could do incline with a narrow grip for the upper pecs. But benching with the guillotine form, very high on your chest, will, apart from destroying your shoulder joints, involve the upper pecs a lot, too. I agree with dodo that dips work the upper pecs a lot. As you can see, the clavicular head helps perform shoulder flexion and adduction, and these actions are a part of the dipping movement. I don't know how much this changes things but I was actually talking about the pectoralis major! When I said recruitment of the upper pec, I meant the upper part of the pec major :p you have any other great links where I can read more about the narrow grip thing? |
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You could do a lot worse than being a Rippetoe fanboy...
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King Neptune
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« Reply #99 on: January 30, 2012, 03:58:44 PM » |
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Umbra, YW (I linked) - he also says he does chins no matter what, he just said horizontal rows are what helps the bench press the most. http://exrx.net/Muscles/PectoralisClavicular.htmlAs you can see, the clavicular head does a lot more than shoulder flexion, so there are other ways to recruit it. But studies have demonstrated that a narrow grip width is even more important than the angle. You could do incline with a narrow grip for the upper pecs. But benching with the guillotine form, very high on your chest, will, apart from destroying your shoulder joints, involve the upper pecs a lot, too. I agree with dodo that dips work the upper pecs a lot. As you can see, the clavicular head helps perform shoulder flexion and adduction, and these actions are a part of the dipping movement. I don't know how much this changes things but I was actually talking about the pectoralis major! When I said recruitment of the upper pec, I meant the upper part of the pec major :p you have any other great links where I can read more about the narrow grip thing? The pectoralis major has got two heads, sternocostal, and clavicular (="upper pecs"). Sorry, I can't remember the sources, but I'm pretty sure they're available, for free (some of them, at least), on the net. But, you know, trust Wolf |
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abdumniator6000
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« Reply #100 on: January 30, 2012, 04:59:46 PM » |
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Partial dips is something I see being performed quite often.
Haha,so do I , and partial squats, and partial benches, and (insert exercise) xD |
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amatella
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« Reply #101 on: January 31, 2012, 05:55:45 PM » |
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okay... Bench press has improved despite not benching for over a month! 200 1 rm!
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+++True champions are made when NO ONES watching+++
Goals for November 2011:
Squat: 265 1 rm *success 2/6/11* New goal 285 1 rm
Deadlift: 405 1 rm, Current 300 x 5
Bench: 195 1 rm *2//9/11 New Current 1 rm = 200 New Goal = 225
Overhead Press: 135 1 rm
Row: 175 x 5 (strict)
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amatella
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« Reply #102 on: January 31, 2012, 05:56:30 PM » |
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inb4 I hijack my own thread  |
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+++True champions are made when NO ONES watching+++
Goals for November 2011:
Squat: 265 1 rm *success 2/6/11* New goal 285 1 rm
Deadlift: 405 1 rm, Current 300 x 5
Bench: 195 1 rm *2//9/11 New Current 1 rm = 200 New Goal = 225
Overhead Press: 135 1 rm
Row: 175 x 5 (strict)
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