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Paralysisxiii
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« on: January 26, 2012, 01:18:13 PM » |
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I am not a huge fan of hypothetical questions, but they happen  . I'm thinking of a training block that's a few months down the road where the main lifts would either be the dumbbell snatch or clean grip power snatch from the hang. Just so I establish it by the way I'm talking about doing this in a 4DAW upper lower template. 1) Now would I be right in classifying the snatch as primarily a posterior chain exercise? 2) I should perform the snatch on lower body days in opposition to upper body days correct? I realize it seems not to matter since they would be my first lifts of the day besides warm up sets but if they were on upper body days obviously the upper main lift that would regularly be used (Chins, Horizontal pressing) would either have its percentage dropped significantly or disappear from the day. So I am at least thinking it would make more sense to program them on lower body days. 3) It's advisable permitting the volume is optimal to do them twice a week right? Both Lower body days? Thanks for any help, if you're wondering what I'm thinking about or it matters after I read, listened and watched a teleseminar, videos and some articles about "Undulating Triphasic Periodization" it seems like a great idea. Cal Dietz was the speaker. If you don't know about undulating triphasic periodization to simplify it and this is really all it seems to be at its base it's a focused form of programming which develops the 3 elements of explosive movement. Phase 1 is the eccentric focus. Phase 2 is the pause or isometric focus. Phase 3 is the concentric focus. I'm thinking about programming for the third concentric emphasis phase, which of course the O Lifts are perfect for. Mike Boyle writes all about how the Snatch is the easiest O Lift to learn and is very effective so that's why I chose that lift. I imagine Cal or somewhere on the internet there's sample blocks for all three phases but I'm working on my programming knowledge so I was trying to hash things out a bit in my mind and on here first. |
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Alsavier
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« Reply #1 on: January 29, 2012, 02:35:22 AM » |
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I would classify them as lowerbody lifts that use the whole body, same as a Deadlift. I do Deadlifts and then upper body work such as back, grip and core. While it "uses" the whole body it won't really fatigue them particuarly, my traps and grip get pretty tired after a Deadlift, but the extra grip work and shrugs are what I do, that might mess with recovery. Twice a week will be fine, at first you'll be greasing the motor pattern I imagine? Unless you know how to snatch already. What are your days going to look like? Snatch Glute Hams Single Leg work ? Just curious.  |
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Paralysisxiii
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« Reply #2 on: January 29, 2012, 10:36:15 AM » |
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I would classify them as lowerbody lifts that use the whole body, same as a Deadlift. I do Deadlifts and then upper body work such as back, grip and core. While it "uses" the whole body it won't really fatigue them particuarly, my traps and grip get pretty tired after a Deadlift, but the extra grip work and shrugs are what I do, that might mess with recovery. Twice a week will be fine, at first you'll be greasing the motor pattern I imagine? Unless you know how to snatch already. What are your days going to look like? Snatch Glute Hams Single Leg work ? Just curious. I still haven't looked at Cal's site but the days would go Day 1 Oly Lift Unilateral Lift (possibly with added ROM) RDL Variation, or Swiss Ball Back Bridge+Leg Curl-- MAYBE glute ham but I've never used them in programming before. They'd probably be best for the eccentric-focus block I think? Anti-Rotational Core Training--Tons of options, don't know which I'd use Day 2 Oly Lift Different Unilateral Lift RDL Variation, Pull Through's or Swiss Ball Anti-Later Flexion Core Training--Probably a waiters walk I have time so I might work on the snatch before I get to this training. My power cleans which probably are horrendous are the only Oly lifts I have any experience with and I just use those to get the bar up so I can do Front Squat Shrugs (which either those or OHP shrugs have done something because my traps seem to have grown significantly). |
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Alsavier
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« Reply #3 on: January 29, 2012, 10:41:48 AM » |
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I honestly could not recommend glute hams more.. in the short time I've been doing them I've actually got hamstrings now, before the posterior of my femur was just a flat line.  Even though I can't do a single rep yet, (can do 5 on a proper bench, but I only got to try that once, natural ones with someone holding your feet are alot harder) my lifts continue to go up as my performance on glute hams continues to go up. What do upper body days look like? |
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Paralysisxiii
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« Reply #4 on: January 29, 2012, 12:00:47 PM » |
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I honestly could not recommend glute hams more.. in the short time I've been doing them I've actually got hamstrings now, before the posterior of my femur was just a flat line. Even though I can't do a single rep yet, (can do 5 on a proper bench, but I only got to try that once, natural ones with someone holding your feet are alot harder) my lifts continue to go up as my performance on glute hams continues to go up. What do upper body days look like? Upper Body days are Max Effort 3-5 Rep Max on a chin-up or pushup variation Followed by chin up or pushup variation with 15-20 reps with serious effort first set and then second set ~max reps Row variation supersetted with rear dealt work 3-4x8-12 Then an upper traps and serratus isolation 3-4x8-15 and usually that's followed by some curl variant but I think I'd drop those in this case. Anterior Core Work Repetition Day Max Reps Pushups or Chins 3 sets Then Chins of some kind supersetted with rear delt work 3-4x8-12 Lateral delt iso or pressing 4x8-12 Upper trap Iso which is usually supersetted with a curl variation. Might replace the curl with grip work. 3x8-10 Neutral Spine with Hip Flexion Core work I think the set up on these days wouldn't necessarily be appropriate for that block. Do want to check out Cal's site for the upper body days definitely. Monday is a big day so I'd probably either drop volume or drop exercises entirely. The glute hams in this particular part of programming I wouldn't do since it's all about concentric explosion and REALLY using the stretch reflex. BUT they sound absolutely perfect for the eccentric focus since the tempo for that is 6 seconds lowering. That's going to be MURDER and for that I am definitely dropping pretty much any iso work at all since the eccentric stress is incredibly damaging. Might only do that for 2 weeks if I really start to feel beat up. |
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Little Sprite
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« Reply #5 on: January 29, 2012, 01:16:30 PM » |
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The thing with the O-lifts and particularly the snatch is that doing it twice a week isn't going to cut it. You have to do them at least 4x/week. You can do variations like power snatch, snatch off blocks etc, but the movement or parts of it must be practiced more often than twice. Also, I'd start out with the power snatch and power clean at first.
Also, keep in mind the snatch is VERY shoulder intensive. It's not a lower body lift, especially not the power snatch. I'd just stick it first somewhere and build around it instead of placing it in your routine already. Also, will you be doing the clean and jerk or just cleans?
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Paralysisxiii
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« Reply #6 on: January 29, 2012, 01:34:55 PM » |
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The thing with the O-lifts and particularly the snatch is that doing it twice a week isn't going to cut it. You have to do them at least 4x/week. You can do variations like power snatch, snatch off blocks etc, but the movement or parts of it must be practiced more often than twice. Also, I'd start out with the power snatch and power clean at first.
Also, keep in mind the snatch is VERY shoulder intensive. It's not a lower body lift, especially not the power snatch. I'd just stick it first somewhere and build around it instead of placing it in your routine already. Also, will you be doing the clean and jerk or just cleans?
Well I'm not going to use the full snatch by all means. Going to learn it with the unilateral dumbbell snatch, then work up to a clean grip power snatch from the hang or possibly from blocks. The point of using the O-lifts for me isn't to use O-Lifts but rather to focus on explosive concentrics, which the O-lifts are perfect for, you know? This is months away like I said so I have time to figure things out, not just throwing it into my routine. I don't even "really" power clean. I practice the movement occasionally with very light or no weight on the bar and in a workout with any significant (and you can't really call the weight I am using when I do it significant) loading it's just done 3 times to get the bar up so I can do front squat shrugs. |
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Little Sprite
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« Reply #7 on: January 29, 2012, 01:41:49 PM » |
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I see. I've read that the dumbell snatch (which I've done in the past, but not as a main movement, just for fun) isn't much like the barbell snatch. If you plan to do the BB snatch, practice with a broomstick or the bar. The DB snatch is good for learning how to be explosive in general, but the technique is too far removed to carry over to the barbell snatch. O-lifters do kettlebell snatches, but again, not as a means of practicing form, but explosiveness from the hips. And it's done in a timed fashion as opposed to for weight.
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Paralysisxiii
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« Reply #8 on: January 29, 2012, 10:09:19 PM » |
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I see. I've read that the dumbell snatch (which I've done in the past, but not as a main movement, just for fun) isn't much like the barbell snatch. If you plan to do the BB snatch, practice with a broomstick or the bar. The DB snatch is good for learning how to be explosive in general, but the technique is too far removed to carry over to the barbell snatch. O-lifters do kettlebell snatches, but again, not as a means of practicing form, but explosiveness from the hips. And it's done in a timed fashion as opposed to for weight.
Got it. I'm aiming for explosive triple extension and concentric focus so I think it'll be a good fit. Probably by far the most fun of the 3 phases as well. |
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Little Sprite
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« Reply #9 on: January 29, 2012, 10:15:40 PM » |
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The triple extension, as I've been reading, is just an extension of the joints, not a technique in and of itself. I think what is best is to focus on hip extension as the main force deliverer on the weight. Your other joints generally extend "unconsciously" from that.
Dumbbell Snatches are SUPER FUN, btw, and are best done with adjustable DB's so that the plates have room to spin at the top so that excess force isn't transferred to your wrist.
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Paralysisxiii
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« Reply #10 on: January 29, 2012, 10:21:03 PM » |
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The triple extension, as I've been reading, is just an extension of the joints, not a technique in and of itself. I think what is best is to focus on hip extension as the main force deliverer on the weight. Your other joints generally extend "unconsciously" from that.
Dumbbell Snatches are SUPER FUN, btw, and are best done with adjustable DB's so that the plates have room to spin at the top so that excess force isn't transferred to your wrist.
Perfect since I have adjustable DB's, and allegedly it's said that db snatches are the easiest to learn of all the lift variations. I can see why hip extension would be so emphasized too since the main complaint about O Lifting is always that people get the bar too far out in front of them and hyperextend at the lumbar spine. But hopefully posteriorly tilting my pelvis with a very intense contraction will take care of some of those problems. Now I'm looking forward to this . Not necessarily looking forward to the 6-second eccentrics phase though. If anything will put muscle on that surely would be it though  |
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Little Sprite
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« Reply #11 on: January 29, 2012, 10:23:27 PM » |
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I found that moderately heavy DB snatches gave my legs a good burn when I did them. I didn't expect it, but they were tired and I was huffin and puffin.
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Paralysisxiii
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« Reply #12 on: January 29, 2012, 10:28:33 PM » |
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I found that moderately heavy DB snatches gave my legs a good burn when I did them. I didn't expect it, but they were tired and I was huffin and puffin.
Personally nothing has tired me out, not even stress inoculation drills followed by a intensive simulated assault and subsequent fight (except for something like intensive sprinting which I haven't done much recently at all) like heavy unilateral leg work. But that's just me haha. Though not the huffing and puffing kind necessarily. |
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