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Author Topic: Wave-loading and recovery (frequency)?  (Read 357 times)
concuncon
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    « on: January 25, 2012, 07:48:33 PM »

    I'm trying to use wave-loading method on my training. Basically it's do sets in pattern similar of 5reps-4reps-3-2-1 (with increasing weight), then repeat and try to go a little heavier.
    Let's say I do 2 waves for my squat, then how many days should I rest before I hit squat again?
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    « Reply #1 on: January 25, 2012, 08:07:06 PM »

    If you're doing the same weights or going up each time, I'd rest 3-4 days. 
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    joe101
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    « Reply #2 on: January 26, 2012, 07:04:26 AM »

    Depends on what (if any) assistance exercises you're doing, how many sets, what rep range etc

    Could you give us a bit more information about your routine and goals?
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    concuncon
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    « Reply #3 on: January 26, 2012, 01:39:47 PM »

    Depends on what (if any) assistance exercises you're doing, how many sets, what rep range etc

    Could you give us a bit more information about your routine and goals?
    I don't do any assistance exercises right now. After squat, I deadlift 1set of 5 with moderate weight (6-8rm), a lot of powerclean/snatch combine with overhead squat with very light weight - that's it for my lower body. I'm doing high bar squat, go low and short term goal is 2 plates x5 (185lbs right now and stalled), long term goal is 2xBW while perfecting the technique on those other lifts.
     
    As for my routine, I plan them in separate term of upper routine and lower routine.
    For Upper body: weighted pull up 3x5, 2 times a week and still progressing; weighted dips 3x5 stalled and looking for a way to break through. Calisthenics training with muscle up, some static hold, handstand pushup... but I've laid them off this week since I'm not progressing on dips for so long.

    In short my goal is just upping the poundage for my high bar squat. I know there are some simple and good strength routines out there but they deal with Powerlifting style, I don't care about the bench press and also I incorporate Calisthenics so I don't know how to modify them.
    « Last Edit: January 26, 2012, 01:46:05 PM by concuncon » Logged

    Alsavier
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    « Reply #4 on: January 29, 2012, 02:42:21 AM »

    For me I have to do assistance work, my power off the floor is abysmal. Actually, it's pretty good these days, it's just my main weak point. Wink
    Something I did, although it's abit dangerous is I worked up to a 1rm I knew I couldn't do at the time, and saw where the lift failed.

    As I sat back, I just couldn't get out of the bottom, knees started coming in a little and so on, + The fact I had problems with below the knee on Deadlifts, + the fact that I couldn't do a single glute ham raise, I knew I had weak hamstrings.

    Now that I've started to work them specificly, glute hams/Deadlfits of a 3inch box their size and strength have improved hugely as have my lifts.

    Anyway; Now that you know how important assistance work can be;
    What do you mean by stalled? How long for? 2weeks isn't really anything to worry about, although I'd often change the exercise, or the rep range/set range personally, as you may stall for another 2, which means you've just wasted 2 weeks. Wink

    You might of stalled just because your body has accomodated too well, some routines are just "well, stick at it" but I cba with that, I KNOW the body can get stronger weekly, I experience it weekly, so what can we do?

    I'd recommend changing the rep n set range of your squatting, if your doing 5's, do 5x3/10x3 with a slightly higher weight *maybe 2.5 kilos?* It'll be hard, but it'll probably be a very sufficient shock to the system.
    Something else aswell that I'm currently trying is Speed Squats, this is another form of training you could look into.
    Our bodies adapt very well to training, Progressive overload is fine, but it's not enough in my experience, sometimes you need to change things completely e.g. the exercise or the way you do the movement, such as a different grip on the bar, a different bar, use dumbells instead, lower the weight and be as fast as possible, etc, etc, etc.
    « Last Edit: January 29, 2012, 02:45:11 AM by Alsavier » Logged

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    concuncon
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    « Reply #5 on: January 29, 2012, 07:26:03 AM »

    For me I have to do assistance work, my power off the floor is abysmal. Actually, it's pretty good these days, it's just my main weak point. Wink
    Something I did, although it's abit dangerous is I worked up to a 1rm I knew I couldn't do at the time, and saw where the lift failed.

    As I sat back, I just couldn't get out of the bottom, knees started coming in a little and so on, + The fact I had problems with below the knee on Deadlifts, + the fact that I couldn't do a single glute ham raise, I knew I had weak hamstrings.

    Now that I've started to work them specificly, glute hams/Deadlfits of a 3inch box their size and strength have improved hugely as have my lifts.

    Anyway; Now that you know how important assistance work can be;
    What do you mean by stalled? How long for? 2weeks isn't really anything to worry about, although I'd often change the exercise, or the rep range/set range personally, as you may stall for another 2, which means you've just wasted 2 weeks. Wink

    You might of stalled just because your body has accomodated too well, some routines are just "well, stick at it" but I cba with that, I KNOW the body can get stronger weekly, I experience it weekly, so what can we do?

    I'd recommend changing the rep n set range of your squatting, if your doing 5's, do 5x3/10x3 with a slightly higher weight *maybe 2.5 kilos?* It'll be hard, but it'll probably be a very sufficient shock to the system.
    Something else aswell that I'm currently trying is Speed Squats, this is another form of training you could look into.
    Our bodies adapt very well to training, Progressive overload is fine, but it's not enough in my experience, sometimes you need to change things completely e.g. the exercise or the way you do the movement, such as a different grip on the bar, a different bar, use dumbells instead, lower the weight and be as fast as possible, etc, etc, etc.

    I see. Thanks.
    I don't think I'm at the level to assess my weaknesses yet. Or rather, like Rippetoe says, I'm not strong enough to have a weakness - simply weak. My problem could be due to my mediocre nutrition and rest (compare to the ridiculous requirement of ~5000Cal), but I can't do much about that. One thing that contribute is fear. I've always try to have very strict form on squat, so the heaviest I did was a single at my ~3RM. So even though sometime I might be able to do the 5th rep, if the 4th rep feel slow and sloppy I'd stop.
    That's why what I'd try right now is wave loading, working up to a single for 2 times a session. I'm going to try going up twice a week and see if I can recover. Once I've reach my 1RM (or fail single), I will consider adding light sessions.
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    Alsavier
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    « Reply #6 on: January 29, 2012, 10:27:03 AM »

    "There is an element of risk in every successful venture." - Tom Platz
    Remember that. If you were so scared of being injured, you wouldn't train at all, surely? Tongue

    Theres nothing wrong with assessing weak points, lets put it this way, it won't make your progress decrease.. all it can do is help. Wink
    Couple sets of glute hams after squats is never a bad thing.
    Also @ the diet thing thats just some ridiculous figure made up by.. I have no idea. If you have to force feed or just drink loads of milk to get that many calories, I don't see the point.

    I eat around 4k a day because..well.. I eat when I'm hungry. Eat when your hungry. Your body knows what it requires, if your only eat 2k and your doing SS, the training probably isn't that intense, it's just common sence for me.
    If your training is "so hard" that you need 6k (or whatever it is these Rippetoe scouts say) then your body will naturally demand that much from you, thats how it's worked for me. When I hit 3-4 PB's on main lifts in a week I am SERIOUSLY hungry on the week end/beginning of the next week.

    Doubtless someone is going to disagree (as usual, when someone says Rippetoe isn't God) but thats how it's worked for me, and I get stronger every week.
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    concuncon
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    « Reply #7 on: January 29, 2012, 10:57:48 AM »

    "There is an element of risk in every successful venture." - Tom Platz
    Remember that. If you were so scared of being injured, you wouldn't train at all, surely? Tongue

    Theres nothing wrong with assessing weak points, lets put it this way, it won't make your progress decrease.. all it can do is help. Wink
    Couple sets of glute hams after squats is never a bad thing.
    Also @ the diet thing thats just some ridiculous figure made up by.. I have no idea. If you have to force feed or just drink loads of milk to get that many calories, I don't see the point.

    I eat around 4k a day because..well.. I eat when I'm hungry. Eat when your hungry. Your body knows what it requires, if your only eat 2k and your doing SS, the training probably isn't that intense, it's just common sence for me.
    If your training is "so hard" that you need 6k (or whatever it is these Rippetoe scouts say) then your body will naturally demand that much from you, thats how it's worked for me. When I hit 3-4 PB's on main lifts in a week I am SERIOUSLY hungry on the week end/beginning of the next week.

    Doubtless someone is going to disagree (as usual, when someone says Rippetoe isn't God) but thats how it's worked for me, and I get stronger every week.
    Then I think one of my weak link is the spinal erector. I can keep my back arch just fine, but when the weight get heavy and my hip rises a bit faster, I lean forward and struggle a bit to rise my shoulder up. That's also the reason I try to keep good back angle when rising up  to avoid unnecessary lean. As from what I've read the good cure is Good morning. I somehow feel that exercise really awkward though, my hams and calves start to feel really stretched at only 45 degree, so I was reluctant to learn it.
    About nutrition part, sorry each person's body react kind of different. In the past, even with hard exercise plus cardio I've never felt the need to eat, unless I remind myself that it's important. I always think that eating is a duty.
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    Alsavier
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    « Reply #8 on: January 29, 2012, 11:51:52 AM »

    You don't have to say sorry, your agreeing with what I said.

    How much ab work do you do? Not crunches that is, I mean roll outs/pull downs/straight leg sit ups/leg raises/pallof press that sort of stuff. I found once I had stronger abs they allowed me to stay more upright.
    http://www.wannabebig.com/training/deadlift-5-plates-like-a-champion/

    I know it's about Deadlifts, but there are some points in there about why your squats are turning into "squat good mornings."
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    concuncon
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    « Reply #9 on: January 29, 2012, 12:19:17 PM »

    I don't have a proper plan for abs, but I do core occasionally (3-5 sets a week total) with hanging windshield wiper, toes to bar, straight leg roll out, and start practicing on suitcase deadlift with low weight.

    In the article it says the glutes is the problem. But I've never had any problem keeping my knees out. I'll keep those points in mind to assess when I squat next week, and maybe some front squat to see about my quads.
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    MercNil
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    « Reply #10 on: January 31, 2012, 11:39:31 AM »

    I'm trying to use wave-loading method on my training. Basically it's do sets in pattern similar of 5reps-4reps-3-2-1 (with increasing weight), then repeat and try to go a little heavier.
    Let's say I do 2 waves for my squat, then how many days should I rest before I hit squat again?

    You're wave loading for size? Smiley  Interesting.

    72 hours for squats.
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    concuncon
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    « Reply #11 on: January 31, 2012, 11:47:25 AM »

    I'm trying to use wave-loading method on my training. Basically it's do sets in pattern similar of 5reps-4reps-3-2-1 (with increasing weight), then repeat and try to go a little heavier.
    Let's say I do 2 waves for my squat, then how many days should I rest before I hit squat again?

    You're wave loading for size? Smiley  Interesting.

    72 hours for squats.
    No it's not about size right now actually. I'm tired of seeing mass progress but no strength even though I'm just doing 5 reps.
    My plan is to get my squat to 225lbs (or as long as this method work) then I'll incorporate more volume work.
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    MercNil
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    « Reply #12 on: January 31, 2012, 11:51:29 AM »

    I'm trying to use wave-loading method on my training. Basically it's do sets in pattern similar of 5reps-4reps-3-2-1 (with increasing weight), then repeat and try to go a little heavier.
    Let's say I do 2 waves for my squat, then how many days should I rest before I hit squat again?

    You're wave loading for size? Smiley  Interesting.

    72 hours for squats.
    No it's not about size right now actually. I'm tired of seeing mass progress but no strength even though I'm just doing 5 reps.
    My plan is to get my squat to 225lbs (or as long as this method work) then I'll incorporate more volume work.

    I see.  If it's for strength, then the wave should be something like, in a 3 set program for squats:

    1st set 3 reps for 100
    2nd set 5 reps for 90
    3rd set 7 reps for 80

    ---

    I was tought that high reps first with low weight and increasing was for mass. So, when I read your first post, that's the conclusion which went into my mind.

    ---

    When i snatch.  I'd start with just the bar for warmup or 50 kg.  Then I'd go for a heavy single.  Then reduce the weight for 3 singles, then go for a heavier single a few minutes later (not less than 3).  1,3,1,3,1 - it works for me.  But it's olympic lifting - for snatch.  I'm not sure how to convert it for squats though.
    « Last Edit: January 31, 2012, 11:53:40 AM by MercNil » Logged
    concuncon
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    « Reply #13 on: January 31, 2012, 12:07:56 PM »

    That's why I'm saying in pattern of 5,4,3,2,1. For example 135x5, 155x3, 175x2, 185x1 then 140x4, 160x3, 190x1. No set done to failure, so for example if at 175 I feel I have 2, I'd just do a single then beat it on the second wave. I hope that I can get my single up without hitting my absolute 1RM (yeah I want strength but not too bad to do a risky rep). In about 2 weeks I'd test my 5RM again.
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    MercNil
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    « Reply #14 on: January 31, 2012, 12:14:10 PM »

    That's why I'm saying in pattern of 5,4,3,2,1. For example 135x5, 155x3, 175x2, 185x1 then 140x4, 160x3, 190x1. No set done to failure, so for example if at 175 I feel I have 2, I'd just do a single then beat it on the second wave. I hope that I can get my single up without hitting my absolute 1RM (yeah I want strength but not too bad to do a risky rep). In about 2 weeks I'd test my 5RM again.


    Application: How to do Wave Loading - Barbell Deadlift


    this conforms to your version of wave loading. Smiley
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