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Author Topic: improving body weight exercises  (Read 789 times)
stp
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« on: February 04, 2012, 11:28:34 AM »

recently i came across many incidents which made me focus more on body weight exercises

1. I injured my groin i have asked not to lift weights for 2 months , i can only do bodyweight exercises now

for the past two years i concentrated more on bench pressing heavy and incline bench pressing heavy but now i find myself not so good in push ups , i have a big chest but i reach failure at 24 push ups

is it possible to hit the chest so hard and make it sore just by doing - push ups , decline push ups and dips ??

please compare the effectiveness

5 sets of push ups till failure , 5sets of decline push ups till failure , 4 sets of dips

Vs
 5 sets of heavy bench press 8-10 reps , 5 sets of incline bench press - 8-10 reps , 2 sets of flyes -12 reps

for lats day i use to do 100 pull ups without counting no of sets and feel my lats grow, i did no dumbbell curls , just 100 pull ups
like that is it possible to make my chest grow doing 100 push ups without counting no of sets ?

2. Today i was spotting a powerlifter , i can not lift weights as i am injured , i went to do mild cardio , this guy asked me to spot
he was bench pressing really heavy , he pushed 4 reps , the last rep he twisted his wrist and his wrist broke , i was able to catch the weight and prevent from falling on him but i was not able to place it back in the rack as it was too heavy , i shouted for help and it became ok
damn that guy cried in pain , he snapped his wrist , after this incident i developed fear towards bench press , in future i would rather do dumbbell presses , incline dumbbell presses and weighted push ups instead of heavy bench press , yeah i will do bench press but i feat to go heavy , i would keep it 10-12 reps

hence are weighted push ups better than bench press ??
does weighted push up cause shoulder injury ? is it ok to place 20 pound plate in my back and do push ups ? will that cause shoulder strain
i started to love push ups , weighted push ups , dips  and hate bench press
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    « Reply #1 on: February 04, 2012, 11:52:02 AM »

    I think weighted push up if done as heavy as bench press, are even more dangerous than bench press, since your shoulder can move around freely instead of having a stable base to push from. But also for that reason, if you are not doing any dangerous weight you are less likely do develop long term shoulder issues compare to bench press (all stabilizing muscle are developed more equally, while bench pressing might let you pushing more than what your shoulder is capable of). If you want to take it up one notch with shoulder health, consider doing hanging rings exercises - your shoulder girdle will be bullet proof for years of strength to come.
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    concuncon
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    « Reply #2 on: February 04, 2012, 12:00:23 PM »

    For me I just do the big 3 for my upper body: weighted dips, weighted pull up, handstand Pushup.
    The way I do dips is a big different though, I try to raise my butt as high as possible (torso almost parallel to ground) to make it more like a push up angle, so I work my chest more, and can go lower without straining my shoulder. It is harder to keep that position with heavier dumbell hold with my thighs, so I'm looking still for a way to have chains or weigh hang from my shoulder.

    With handstand pushup, from your first headstand push up to repping the hardest version (on rings) would take at least a year or more (it actually take me a year to go from 10 headstand PU to 5 rings handstand PU). So I wouldn't be worrying about adding weight anytime soon.

    Muscle up is a nice exercise, but it is really hard on my recovery right now so I've laid it off.
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    stp
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    « Reply #3 on: February 04, 2012, 12:01:16 PM »

    well i will not go very heavy in push ups , i would not place any weight more than 20 pounds plate in my back
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    MarkusBeginner
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    « Reply #4 on: February 04, 2012, 12:20:09 PM »

    For me I just do the big 3 for my upper body: weighted dips, weighted pull up, handstand Pushup.
    The way I do dips is a big different though, I try to raise my butt as high as possible (torso almost parallel to ground) to make it more like a push up angle, so I work my chest more, and can go lower without straining my shoulder. It is harder to keep that position with heavier dumbell hold with my thighs, so I'm looking still for a way to have chains or weigh hang from my shoulder.

    With handstand pushup, from your first headstand push up to repping the hardest version (on rings) would take at least a year or more (it actually take me a year to go from 10 headstand PU to 5 rings handstand PU). So I wouldn't be worrying about adding weight anytime soon.

    Muscle up is a nice exercise, but it is really hard on my recovery right now so I've laid it off.

    So, you think ring push ups are the best?
    Lol I made TRX system few days ago using long straps and some PVC to make the handles, definetly going to do inverted rows, push ups, pull ups, tricep pushes, ect..
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    « Reply #5 on: February 04, 2012, 12:25:50 PM »

    For me I just do the big 3 for my upper body: weighted dips, weighted pull up, handstand Pushup.
    The way I do dips is a big different though, I try to raise my butt as high as possible (torso almost parallel to ground) to make it more like a push up angle, so I work my chest more, and can go lower without straining my shoulder. It is harder to keep that position with heavier dumbell hold with my thighs, so I'm looking still for a way to have chains or weigh hang from my shoulder.

    With handstand pushup, from your first headstand push up to repping the hardest version (on rings) would take at least a year or more (it actually take me a year to go from 10 headstand PU to 5 rings handstand PU). So I wouldn't be worrying about adding weight anytime soon.

    Muscle up is a nice exercise, but it is really hard on my recovery right now so I've laid it off.


    So, you think ring push ups are the best?
    Lol I made TRX system few days ago using long straps and some PVC to make the handles, definetly going to do inverted rows, push ups, pull ups, tricep pushes, ect..

    Best for what? Cheesy
    If it's for shoulder strength, the front support position (or dips to front support) is killer.
    If it's for bulging chest development, then it's hanging rings fly
    Ring Fly Aways
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    « Reply #6 on: February 04, 2012, 12:32:18 PM »

    For me I just do the big 3 for my upper body: weighted dips, weighted pull up, handstand Pushup.
    The way I do dips is a big different though, I try to raise my butt as high as possible (torso almost parallel to ground) to make it more like a push up angle, so I work my chest more, and can go lower without straining my shoulder. It is harder to keep that position with heavier dumbell hold with my thighs, so I'm looking still for a way to have chains or weigh hang from my shoulder.

    With handstand pushup, from your first headstand push up to repping the hardest version (on rings) would take at least a year or more (it actually take me a year to go from 10 headstand PU to 5 rings handstand PU). So I wouldn't be worrying about adding weight anytime soon.

    Muscle up is a nice exercise, but it is really hard on my recovery right now so I've laid it off.


    So, you think ring push ups are the best?
    Lol I made TRX system few days ago using long straps and some PVC to make the handles, definetly going to do inverted rows, push ups, pull ups, tricep pushes, ect..

    Best for what? Cheesy
    If it's for shoulder strength, the front support position (or dips to front support) is killer.
    If it's for bulging chest development, then it's hanging rings fly
    Ring Fly Aways

    I mean, best push up variation considering effectiveness and safety.

    Btw those ring flys look tough...Smiley
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    stp
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    « Reply #7 on: February 04, 2012, 12:35:45 PM »

    i will try them , they do look effective
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    « Reply #8 on: February 04, 2012, 12:38:03 PM »

    i will try them , they do look effective

    Definetly, try to do many exercises on TRX/rings. I think, that when one masters the rings, bar gets too easy. Not sure tho.
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    « Reply #9 on: February 04, 2012, 12:42:08 PM »

    For me I just do the big 3 for my upper body: weighted dips, weighted pull up, handstand Pushup.

    Umm, would be good idea to add some inverted rows also.
    Currenlty the push-pull ratio is 2:1

    Just for balance, then you are doing: Horizontal push and pull, vertical pull and push.

    Ratio 2:2 Cheesy

    Im just sayin.... Undecided
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    concuncon
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    « Reply #10 on: February 04, 2012, 12:55:53 PM »

    For me I just do the big 3 for my upper body: weighted dips, weighted pull up, handstand Pushup.

    Umm, would be good idea to add some inverted rows also.
    Currenlty the push-pull ratio is 2:1

    Just for balance, then you are doing: Horizontal push and pull, vertical pull and push.

    Ratio 2:2 Cheesy

    Im just sayin.... Undecided

    Well yeah, I'm not adding more pulling exercises since there's a lot of hanging practice already: hanging windshield wiper, front lever, muscle up,... I'm still experimenting with my volume capability so it's better to do less than more.
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    Paralysisxiii
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    « Reply #11 on: February 04, 2012, 12:55:58 PM »

    I think weighted push up if done as heavy as bench press, are even more dangerous than bench press, since your shoulder can move around freely instead of having a stable base to push from. But also for that reason, if you are not doing any dangerous weight you are less likely do develop long term shoulder issues compare to bench press (all stabilizing muscle are developed more equally, while bench pressing might let you pushing more than what your shoulder is capable of). If you want to take it up one notch with shoulder health, consider doing hanging rings exercises - your shoulder girdle will be bullet proof for years of strength to come.


    Weighted pushups done with an appropriate weight (if that appropriate weight for you is 200-400 extra pounds, okay) I don't see as inherently dangerous or remotely as dangerous as a heavy bench press. You seem to be trying to equate stability to safety, in which case leg press would be much safer than a squat and SO much safer than a single leg squat if done with a heavy load.

    Then you're trying to say that rings are superior for shoulder health?

    I see where you're coming from with all of this but I think a lot of it is trying to relate things that simply aren't inherently correlated and using a kind of general logic. Rings are great for many purposes, king of these natural ROM and the great tension and activation they often illicit but we're comparing apples to oranges and saying one's better than the other because of the color of the skin and then mentioning how great pears are. Just doesn't quite follow.

    Weighted pushups(with a pushup plus at the end), chin ups where you depress your scapula from the mid-point until the maximum amount at the end of the concentric and get your chest to the bar and endless rowing are a great combo for shoulder health and safety.

    The plus at the end of the pushup is REALLY important, so is keeping neutral spine and tucking your elbows and not letting them flare. Otherwise you're really beating on your shoulders, checkout this article.
    http://www.t-nation.com/free_online_article/most_recent/the_best_damn_pushups_article_period

    Chin ups are best done for health in a neutral grip (or on rings) and depressing your scapula is critical for stabilizer development and health.

    Rowing is the most important thing you can possibly be doing if you have any concern for shoulder health. Doing more rowing than pressing is never a bad idea. Just make sure you are retracting the scapula as much as possible the whole movement, and at the end of every rep (end of the eccentric) let your shoulder(s) protract for maximum ROM and to avoid rhomboid dominance. Also be sure to depress your scapula as much as possible from the mid point of the concentric onward, think of it as trying to put your shoulder blade in your opposite back pocket(s).

    All of these can be done with bodyweight, and bodyweight+added weight. TRX or ring pushups should be great for health AND for making your chest grow (showed really high activation levels when tested) but I've seen fine results with chest growth doing your normal everyday weighted pushups.
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    1rs
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    « Reply #12 on: February 04, 2012, 01:32:34 PM »

    I think, that when one masters the rings, bar gets too easy. Not sure tho.
    Oh no. I can easily do front lever on the rings. On the bar it gets harder  Smiley
    Don't know why, maybe because i trained only with rings. When i was able to perform a few tricks like front lever or muscle up i tried to do that on the bar. It was harder. Although, with some practice i did them both.
    Using rings your wrist and arms will "select" the strongest point. While on the bar it is not possible. I think this is the main difference.  Smiley
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    « Reply #13 on: February 04, 2012, 01:52:35 PM »

    Yes, chinups and inverted rows from rings, straps, TRX...are easier on the joints, because you can naturally rotate the wrists throughout the motion.
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    concuncon
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    « Reply #14 on: February 04, 2012, 02:51:13 PM »

    I think, that when one masters the rings, bar gets too easy. Not sure tho.
    Oh no. I can easily do front lever on the rings. On the bar it gets harder  Smiley
    Don't know why, maybe because i trained only with rings. When i was able to perform a few tricks like front lever or muscle up i tried to do that on the bar. It was harder. Although, with some practice i did them both.
    Using rings your wrist and arms will "select" the strongest point. While on the bar it is not possible. I think this is the main difference.  Smiley
    Some pulling exercises are easier on rings.
    Dips is definitively harder, especially if you try to lock out with front support position at the top. It's a bit frustrating for me though, I worked on Rings dips for awhile thinking it would improve my p-bar dips (45lbsx5 before) - it seems it didn't. So if what you want is purely strength, choose a more stable exercise to work on, you will be able to push your big muscle group more without stability holding you back. If you choose to work on rings (or one leg squat...) your pure strength might be a bit behind but it sure is more stable and prevent injuries in the long run.

    I'm just applying general logic and experience.
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