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King Neptune
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« Reply #15 on: February 04, 2012, 02:54:05 PM » |
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How are you doing your p-bar dips? Same form as on rings (trying to be parallel to the floor)?
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breunor
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« Reply #16 on: February 04, 2012, 03:03:44 PM » |
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Just a heads-up, it's just as easy to hurt yourself doing body weight lifts as free weight lifts. That said, look at working into proper 1 arm push-ups, hand in the diamond/close press position and keeping your shoulders squared to the floor, and feet no more than shoulder width apart. Slowly lower down until your chest touches your hand then back up. You can also do 1 arm inverted rows once regulars are easy. Both of these you work towards with multiple steps of assisted press/rows, with the other hand out to the side providing less help.
If using rings, try putting your feet in the rings and keep hands on the floor as an option too. If you can hold the L-sit, that works well while doing dips, rotates you forward into more of a chest dip versus the tricep dip.
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concuncon
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« Reply #17 on: February 05, 2012, 11:56:23 AM » |
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How are you doing your p-bar dips? Same form as on rings (trying to be parallel to the floor)?
Yeah. If I do normal chest dips I can use 10 to 20lbs more but shoulders feel vulnerable at the low position. Raise butt up put more stress on my delts but less on the joints. Also the weight is limit by my core strength of how much I can hold and raise up, that's why in another thread I asked if there's a weight belt (harness) that can strap on the shoulder (like a back pack wear in front) - no answer. Weight vest looks nice but I cannot afford. |
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King Neptune
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« Reply #18 on: February 05, 2012, 12:01:45 PM » |
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You can work towards planche dips, no weights needed  |
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concuncon
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« Reply #19 on: February 05, 2012, 12:18:04 PM » |
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You can work towards planche dips, no weights needed It's a different beast altogether though. My dips form is with forearm almost vertical, work is done heavily by the triceps. Once the legs also raise up, the forearm will lean forward and that relies heavily on Biceps and Delts (straight arm strength). Though I'm also playing with the planche progressions, Dips work my Tris and Pecs better. What I've learnt is that a heavy dip does not contribute much to a planche (if anything, I'm better at raising my butt up, that helps in press to handstand) |
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King Neptune
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« Reply #20 on: February 05, 2012, 12:25:24 PM » |
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They work the chest a lot
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concuncon
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« Reply #21 on: February 05, 2012, 12:43:05 PM » |
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They work the chest a lot Lol that's not my point. My point is that it's still too far away from my training direction. I can be adding 40lbs more on my dips (make it 80lbs) and still nowhere near the planche. It's not that I'm not interested in the planche, but I think the progression to the planche, though long and bloody, does not bulk as much muscle as the progression to 100lbs dips (I've seen skinnier dude that have perfect planche). I still somewhat favor some mass. (As to why I don't use bench press - just hate it lol) |
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King Neptune
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« Reply #22 on: February 05, 2012, 12:46:46 PM » |
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These are not exactly the same as planche pushups, these are more like flying dips. And they will pack meat on your upper body if you eat enough.
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concuncon
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« Reply #23 on: February 05, 2012, 01:07:09 PM » |
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IDK, i don't see the difference though.
You have a point that the beast when already tamed will pack on meat for you. I'm talking about the progression. Most of the time to learn the planche push up we try to progress by static hold, and only when the hold is tamed then the push up can be performed.
For a similar scenario say, the handstand pushup: I'm lucky that I can perform the headstand push up on first try - I can build mass with HSPU, but for people that have to go through the trouble learning how to hold a handstand against the wall, while you might recommend him to be patience and learn the HS, I'd say the best way for him to pack on some mass for the time being is some overhead press.
It's just different opinions on how to train really.
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King Neptune
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« Reply #24 on: February 05, 2012, 01:19:39 PM » |
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Main difference is you don't have to be so horizontal (the legs can be a bit lower if you like), and you can dip below the level of the bars. Well, your dip form is the beginning of this progression. From there you would straighten the back, bring the knees further back, straddle the legs, then full planche. You can do a dynamic movement choosing one variation that suits your current level.
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MarkusBeginner
You can't put a limit on anything.
Bulking Gnome
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The more you dream, the farther you get.
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« Reply #25 on: February 09, 2012, 04:58:36 AM » |
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Main difference is you don't have to be so horizontal (the legs can be a bit lower if you like), and you can dip below the level of the bars. Well, your dip form is the beginning of this progression. From there you would straighten the back, bring the knees further back, straddle the legs, then full planche. You can do a dynamic movement choosing one variation that suits your current level.
King Neptune, in previous posts you mentioned "scapula depression"...but what does it mean? I know there is: Scapula retraction (when doing rows), protraction (when doing eccentric part of the row), scapula elevation (when doing any type of shrugs). What does scapula depresion mean? Is it the effect from doing stuff like wall slides? What does scapula do when it "depresses"? How to depress the scapula? When I protract on rows, is it called scapula protraction, but when I do push up plus, this is not scapula protraction because it is a serratus anterior exercises? Please let me know |
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Name: Markus
Age: 18
Height: 184 cm
Weight: 77 KG
Goal: ¤ 20 Pull-ups (Currently 12)
¤ 82 Knuckle push ups (Currently 20)
¤ Learn POSE running
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Paralysisxiii
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« Reply #26 on: February 09, 2012, 07:24:35 AM » |
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Main difference is you don't have to be so horizontal (the legs can be a bit lower if you like), and you can dip below the level of the bars. Well, your dip form is the beginning of this progression. From there you would straighten the back, bring the knees further back, straddle the legs, then full planche. You can do a dynamic movement choosing one variation that suits your current level.
King Neptune, in previous posts you mentioned "scapula depression"...but what does it mean? I know there is: Scapula retraction (when doing rows), protraction (when doing eccentric part of the row), scapula elevation (when doing any type of shrugs). What does scapula depresion mean? Is it the effect from doing stuff like wall slides? What does scapula do when it "depresses"? How to depress the scapula? When I protract on rows, is it called scapula protraction, but when I do push up plus, this is not scapula protraction because it is a serratus anterior exercises? Please let me know Scapular protraction is still scapular protraction in pushup plus. Physical movements like you know are the general means by whch we determine what muscles are being used in any given movement. Serratus Anterior is the muscle which we generally consider is being used when the scapula is protracted. It's still scapular protraction and still the serratus anterior being used if it's a pushup plus or if you just do it standing. Depression is the opposite of elevation. The muscle primarily involved in depression of the scapula is the trapezius' lower fibers. In practice (in movement) you can think of it as if you were on dip bars and pushed your shoulder blades down. You can also think of it as if you get your chest to the bar during a chin up and pull your shoulder blades down as much as possible. The last example I'll give is if during a row you tried not only to retract your scapula, but from the midpoint of the concentric onward to put your shoulder blade into your opposite side back pocket. Here's a picture example http://www.ifbb.com/newsletter/images/58/illnew11-1.jpgScapular depression is critical to do during rows and chin ups for maximum benefit and shoulder health/stability. & it does occur at the bottom portion of a scapular wall slide movement. If you need a drawing for it to make sense, I'll make one. Art and rendering skills to the rescue. |
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concuncon
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« Reply #27 on: February 09, 2012, 07:34:55 AM » |
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Depression in simple term is just shoulder down. Although I've been following the advice of "shoulder down and back" on almost all exercises for a long time, recently I've switched to "shoulder down and flare the lat" on my bodyweight exercises, I feel much more stable, strong and more capable on static hold. I think shoulder "down and back" is only perfect for Bench pressing, since you are trying to create a stable base with the scapula and back muscle to push against the bench (on squat and deadlift is to keep the back arch). For bodyweight exercises like dips, back lever, front lever... shoulder down and flaring the lat (hunch upperback, hollow body) will take advantage of your strong back muscle to involve them on the movement. Pulling your shoulder back would only stretch out the front delts, biceps (try back lever or bent arm planche, I even thought I could never learn that position) and disable the lat while you are not having a bench to push against. I think the first planche pic on this article show the upperback position I'm talking about: http://www.eatmoveimprove.com/2010/03/the-fundamentals-of-bodyweight-strength-training/ |
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« Last Edit: February 09, 2012, 07:38:05 AM by concuncon »
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MarkusBeginner
You can't put a limit on anything.
Bulking Gnome
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The more you dream, the farther you get.
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« Reply #28 on: February 09, 2012, 08:30:10 AM » |
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Thanks! No drawing needed... Talking about pull ups/chin ups, is it better to relax at the bottom and let the scapula elevate (like doing reverse shrug)? I once read one article about that pull up should start with a "scapula pull up" from completely dead hang position. That article: http://www.rookiejournal.com/the-final-answer-pull-us-vs-chin-ups-page1.html |
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Name: Markus
Age: 18
Height: 184 cm
Weight: 77 KG
Goal: ¤ 20 Pull-ups (Currently 12)
¤ 82 Knuckle push ups (Currently 20)
¤ Learn POSE running
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King Neptune
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« Reply #29 on: February 09, 2012, 09:10:31 AM » |
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No, keep your shoulders away from your ears in the dead hang. During pushups, row yourself to the ground (shoulder blades ending up squeezed back, and down) and then press up, really spreading them apart at the top. You should keep the shoulder blades back during dips, and not let them elevate too much at the bottom of the dip either. No hunchback. |
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