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Author Topic: Can you lose weight and simultaneously build muscle?  (Read 7612 times)
Evilcyber
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    « on: August 26, 2009, 10:57:11 AM »

    You can't lose weight and build muscle - a mantra you read again and again on various bodybuilding sites and forums, especially those where the majority of users believe in the benefits of bulking and cutting. And should you dare to say, no, it actually is possible, you most likely will receive a lot of hateful responses.

    I looked at a lot of studies that examined this, and the majority agree that muscle mass can at least be preserved with resistance training, as for example here:

    Quote
    These data indicate that a weight-loss dietary regimen in conjunction with aerobic and resistance exercise prevents the normal decline in fat-free mass and muscular power and augments body composition, maximal strength, and maximum oxygen consumption compared with weight-loss induced by diet alone.


    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/617116

    But two actually found it can be increased:

    Quote
    It was concluded that weight training results in comparable gains in muscle area and strength for DPE and EO. Adding weight training exercise to a caloric restriction program results in maintenance of LBW compared with DO.  (...) Apparently, with mild caloric restriction an adequate environment for muscle growth can exist. The protein supplement helped ensure sufficient protein intake to allow muscle growth to occur.


    (DPE = diet plus weight training; EO = weight training without diet)

    http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/content/abstract/47/1/19

    Quote
    The strength-training group also showed significant increases (P < 0.05) in anthropometrically measured flexed arm muscle mass and grip strength.


    http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/content/abstract/66/3/557

    Given these I'd say that yes, you can gain muscle while on a diet, but it is hard to achieve and mostly doable by those that have little previous experience with resistance training and vast energy reserves in form of adipose tissue. A trained bodybuilder who already has a comparatively low bodyfat level would find this very difficult. And this is also were the wrong assumption of the bulking & cutting proponents comes in: they view it from their training level and not from the person's that is untrained, overweight or even obese.
    « Last Edit: August 26, 2009, 11:12:15 AM by Evilcyber » Logged

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    « Reply #1 on: August 26, 2009, 06:18:33 PM »

    Bah!!!  I'm my own experiment and beleive what I see...  I lost 50 lbs and have increased my strength  (went from curling 10 lbs 20 times to curling 90lbs 15 times never mind the crunches, push ups,  and everything else).   My log book does not lie...

    So yes I can loose weight and gain muscle.  I imagine most can. 

    That said my arm size did reduce from 15.5 inches to 14 but what I lost was not muscle it was flabby soft fat.  Now my muslces at 14 are rock hard and veiny.  Cool

    But think about this...  Next time your at the grocery store look at a pound of butter.  Now try to picture how many pounds you lost in reference to the butter brick.  For me that would be 50 bricks all over my body...  Trust me it adds up.  My waist was 46 now is 36 (loose).
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    Evilcyber
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    « Reply #2 on: August 27, 2009, 05:08:53 AM »

    I think we'll introduce a new benchmark for weightloss here: How much butter have you lost?  Cheesy
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    Ataro
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    « Reply #3 on: August 27, 2009, 11:40:50 AM »

    I think a subjective standard has been applied to the word "weight" by the status quo.  I consider losing weight to be cutting fat, i.e. dropping your BMI, and gaining muscle to be technically gaining weight, yet lowing your BMI as well.

    In my own experience for example, I have gained 22 pounds over about a little over year and a half of working out, yet I consider that I've lost weight.  I've dropped my BMI by quite a bit.

    Thus, I think it's entirely possible to lose weight and gain muscle, if you apply an objective standard to the word "weight."

    Hope that wasn't too muddled.
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    MusclesMarinara
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    « Reply #4 on: August 27, 2009, 10:57:02 PM »

    Sure you can.    The body can use it's own fat as an energy source while on a diet.   
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    theDevildude
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    « Reply #5 on: August 28, 2009, 12:58:27 AM »

    Can anybody increase his weight when he is consuming less calories than he is using them but he is eating good amount of proteins.
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    « Reply #6 on: August 28, 2009, 03:26:47 AM »

    Can anybody increase his weight when he is consuming less calories than he is using them but he is eating good amount of proteins.

    depends how 'less' calories! A few, yes; hundreds, no.

    Evil, I agree it is possible: but to do it you either need the extremes of relatively unadapted to resistance training or a decent amount of fat on you to begin with, coupled with perfect diet and routine.

    But to be honest, the biggest problem is getting the diet and routine perfect; everyone is different and it will differ for everyone, so the balance is extremely hard. I'd rather put on a couple lbs of fat and know I am increasing solidly in muscle over the course of a month or two, then lose them over the next month or two. But that's my choice. It is wrong how people who claim the "fat loss + muscle gain is possible" are slated on bodybuilding websites, and it just goes to show how much of an affect hearsay and general public view have on separating 'fact' from 'fiction'.
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    « Reply #7 on: August 28, 2009, 05:01:26 AM »

    Firstly lets be clear when Im talking about my own experiences Im talking about a competitive athlete and all the ancillaries that would be used such as Gear, GH, T3 and the like.

    The premise of what I will go into is the same for all, its how you adapt yourself to the plan that will dictate your results.

    Basic Overview

    The way to structure this type of plan means you need to take into account a few theories.  Im not saying these are beyond questioning but its the plan I follow.

    The way I structure my week is as follows

    MOnday - Training day
    Tuesday - Rest Day
    Wed - Training Day
    Thursday - Rest day/Kickboxing
    Friday - Training
    Saturday - Rest/cardio
    Sunday - Rest

    I follow a split over 2 weeks and I split my training as such.

    Chest
    Back/Traps
    Delts
    Quads/calfs
    Hams/calfs
    Arms

    So 6 days training only 3 days per week.

    This gives a typical training split as such over 2 weeks

    Mon - Quads
    Wed - Back
    Fri - Delts
    Mon - Hams
    Wed - Chest
    Fri - Arms

    Then on the 3rd week you restart with a different bodypart.  So the next 2 weeks could look like this

    Mon - Back
    Wed - Quads
    Fri - Delts
    Mon - Hams
    Wed - Chest
    Fri - Arms

    but any combination is possible

    The reason for this set up is

    - More rest and growth
    - More variation in training protocol and so more variation in stimulus
    - No over training

    Now I know what you are thinking, how can I possibly grow only training 3 days a week and only training each bodypart every 2 weeks?

    Well on traditional training yes but now think about hitting each bodypart HARD every 2 weeks.  for example how about this for a chest workout

    Pec Dec - 5 sets, 20 reps
    DB Press - 4 sets 20 reps x 3 10 reps x 1
    Cable Crossovers superset - 20 reps high 20 reps low
    Bench Flyes - 20 reps 3 sets
    Press Flyes (5 press, 5 flyes, 5 press, 5 flyes) 3 sets
    Bech press machine 30 reps x 5 50%Max.

    Thats what I did last week.  I got the 70 kg DBs up for 7 on the last set of pressing, I did 40kg on cables.  So as you can see I dont do 'light wieghts' when I train.  I just do MORE reps.

    Now you can imagine this type of training can burn a hell of a lot of calories and also stimulate muscle growth.  BUT if you were to do this for each bodypart and train a whole body in a week you'd lose muscle from over training.

    Therefore you can see the reason for splitting down the training over 2 weeks?

    Make sense?

    Right now apply that to all your workouts.

    Diet

    Now think of this.  When does your body repair and restore your muscles.

    - in the gym?
    - before training on training days?
    - After training?
    - On days when you dont exert yourself physically?

    When would you build a house? When you are busy doing other things or when you had a bit of free time?

    Now apply this rule of thought to diet.  Therefore you would need the most calories on days that you rest in order to provide adequate repair nutrients.

    Now when you think about

    losing weight - less calories
    Gaining muscle - more calories

    So logically wouldnt you want to restrict calories on days you were making the most energy be burnt - Training days

    and fill up on days you rest - Rest days

    Anyone around the game for long enough will tel you that its the food you eat on the days before training that fuel your training.

    So logically say you had a high calories day on a rest day and trained the day after you would have all the glycogen you needed but would be running a deficit which would facilitate fat burning?

    Therefore my diet is structured as such off season

    Monday - Training - Low calorie day
    Tuesday - Rest and Recovery - High Calorie day
    Wed - Training - Low calorie
    Thursday - Rest/kickboxing - High calorie
    Fri - Training low calorie
    Sat - Rest/Cheat day
    Sun - Rest/ medium calorie day

    SO you can see there are 3 low calorie days and 3 high calorie days and 1 medium day.

    SO around 40% of your week is in deficit while 60% is concentrated towards muscle recovery.

    SO how would a typical low day look

    8am - 70g Oats, 20g Peanut Butter, 50g Protein shake
    11am - 200g chicken, 70g Rice or a baked potato 10ml Olive oil
    2pm - Same as 11am
    4pm - Extreme Mass (40g oats, 40g protein)
    5. 30pm - Train
    7pm - WHey and carb shake
    10pm - 8 egg whites 3 yolks, wholemeal toast

    High Day will be same as above but I increase the carb weight at each meal by 30g.

    I also have as many fruit as I like on any day as fruit has important antioxidant and vitamin properties.

    So none of this is really hard to do, of course you can subtitute different meats or carbs if you like.

    Thats all I can write for now but I will update with supplement and vitamin rotations tomorrow
    « Last Edit: August 28, 2009, 05:27:36 AM by Evilcyber » Logged
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    « Reply #8 on: August 28, 2009, 05:33:10 AM »

    But to be honest, the biggest problem is getting the diet and routine perfect; everyone is different and it will differ for everyone, so the balance is extremely hard. I'd rather put on a couple lbs of fat and know I am increasing solidly in muscle over the course of a month or two, then lose them over the next month or two. But that's my choice. It is wrong how people who claim the "fat loss + muscle gain is possible" are slated on bodybuilding websites, and it just goes to show how much of an affect hearsay and general public view have on separating 'fact' from 'fiction'.

    Yes, it is hard hard to build muscle under these conditions. But when someone who is obese can at least manage to preserve the amount of muscle he already has to carry his weight around I'd already call that a success.
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    « Reply #9 on: August 28, 2009, 12:01:57 PM »

    hats off to rosedale6 for putting up the largest post i have ever seen Grin. i believe you can lose fat and gain muscle although it is a longer process than doing one or the other. i have dropped my bmi from 37 to 25 in about 4 months just by eating more controlled and being more concious of my calorie intake. and i have gained significant muscle aswell or as much as can be expected.
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    « Reply #10 on: September 03, 2009, 11:49:47 AM »

    In a couple months I will let you know how this goes for me. I am 30% body fat and am following a strict diet and will be combining cardio with weight training to try and lose fat and gain muscle at the same time.

    I guess the proof will be in the results forget all the reading material.
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    Bmarks89
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    « Reply #11 on: November 27, 2009, 02:17:00 AM »

    It is possible to get stronger whilst losing weight (fat weight obviously.) You just need a damned strict diet !

    It is working for me and I am quite endomorphic / mesomorphic
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    « Reply #12 on: December 12, 2009, 04:12:40 AM »

    Could you work it as training days you have maintance level calories and rest days diet days?

    or would that limit growth?
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    « Reply #13 on: December 12, 2009, 04:22:51 AM »

    Just to not I have read Rosedale 6's psot but surely you need more energy of training days plus your body starts recoverign straight away
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    « Reply #14 on: May 23, 2010, 06:27:37 AM »

    Hi all, I want to lose a few pounds  and gain muscle, I was told that I should use protein drinks, I am concerned that the protein drinks will add more fat, or I am talking rubbish.
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